Talk:Bill Murray
Inclusion on the wiki When this article was created in March, it was put in the Celebrities category. I just added Creature Shop Actors, because that seems to be the rationale for having a page for Murray. But -- should we have a page for him? As far as I can tell, he doesn't interact with the Creature Shop tiger in Darjeeling Limited, and he hasn't interacted with the Muppets, which is what would qualify him for the Celebs category. The picture of Murray and Fran Brill is great, but we don't have a category for people who have acted with puppeteers in non-puppet movies. Etcetera. Should we have this page or what? -- Danny (talk) 22:13, November 6, 2009 (UTC) :I hate to say it, but that isn't enough to justify a page by the guidelines set. I thought they had to interact with a creature/muppet for a page. So he's gotta go. And then I hope he does something eventually to justify a page. -- Nate (talk) 22:56, November 6, 2009 (UTC) ::It was created by a banned user, some incarnation of User:AKR619 (who created it before there was even the very minor connection). Early on, back in 2005 and 2006 when anyone in any Creature Shop Movie was getting a page, there was some discussion as to whether to define it based on interaction but nobody agreed on that. I know you've brought up before whether to dump pages for human actors in Creature Shop Movies, questioning even one like James Cromwell with heavy interaction. That was some months ago, so I don't know how you feel about it now. ::So, for this page specifically, we don't need it, but there's still the larger issue which you may want to bring up at Category:Creature Shop Actors. If it's based on interaction when applying to Creature Shop-effects in non-Henson produced films, then Cromwell definitely belongs, Murray and Gary Beach or John Barrowman don't, or even from ''George of the Jungle, Leslie Mann would count but Richard Roundtree wouldn't. My own inclination might be to decide similarly to our discussion on actors like Jackie Chan in Around the World in 80 Days on movies with vague digital Creature Shop effects (smoke, wire removal, etc.) A movie with Creatures as a major part of the film's world (The Flintstones, The Adventures of Pinocchio, The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy), almost everyone interacts and singling out and removing the few who may not can be tricky and pointless. In a movie where it's an isolated scene or effect and no other involvement, then limit it to those in that scene. Darjeeling is one of the more obvious since the tiger has a brief cameo in a throwaway shot, no other actors involved. So definitely no to Murray and to anyone else who only appeared in that movie. The Producers is slightly more Creature-y but only just, with the extended pigeon sequence, so with either definition (creatures being part of the movie's "world" or just based on performer interaction), it would likely mean only Will Ferrell. He doesn't even have a page yet, because nobody here really had a personal yen to create a Will Ferrell page, as we have for Barrowman or Gary Beach, and I realized I myself had redlinked David Huddleston (the judge) on 1776 just because it was another connection (and you know my fondness for character actors). So I'm increasingly thinking that approach would be the simplest for now. We'd lose a few connections and pages but it would still let us have fun with the Creature Shop link when it fits. ::Most of that goes to the larger issue, though (and that's one of those cases where basically breaking down a list of the actors and their connection would be the best way, like we did when trimming down the dub voices). For this page, already deleted twice and created by a known, blocked nut and cleaned up by us afterwards? I'd say dump (even barring everything else mentioned, Murray's role in Darjeeling is merely a prologue cameo as "The Businessman" running after the train; he has one silent camera shot later, in the train pan which eventually leads to the tiger, and reviews speculated as to whether that character was meant to be the deceased father of the main stars, but that's it.) -- Andrew Leal (talk) 23:17, November 6, 2009 (UTC) :::Cool, that's what I thought. I deleted the page. And yes to all the points about cleaning out the Creature Shop Actors and Celebs categories. -- Danny (talk) 23:45, November 6, 2009 (UTC)